Transcript: Interview with Dimitris Avramopoulos

Europe's worst refugee crisis in decades shows no signs of easing. Though the number of refugees landing on European shores has dipped slightly, inflows will no doubt rise in the spring. Borders are closing, governments are squabbling and plans emanating from Brussels seem too ambitious to have any immediate impact. The Economist spoke with Dimitris Avramopoulos, the European Commissioner for migration, home affairs and citizenship, about threats to free movement in Europe, plans to manage the refugee flows and Europe’s responsibility towards migrants. This transcript has been edited for clarity.

The Economist: There is a line being used by many people in the commission: to save Schengen we must apply it. What does that mean?
Dimitris Avramopoulos: Schengen is very clear. Member states must manage their borders and [external] European borders in a way that will not produce any deficiencies. The flows of migrants and refugees are not properly managed. It's not only about Schengen, it's also about how frontline member states are implementing what we decided at the central European level. We all agreed to set up hotspots [processing and registration centres]. All the [people] who approach European borders or shores must be immediately registered, fingerprinted and identified. We have a database for EURODAC [a database of asylum applicants' fingerprints]. Relocation and resettlement cannot work if hotspots do not work.

The Greek government has stepped up its efforts, and all being well the hotspots should be ready by mid-March at the latest. The same is true in Italy. Right now there is one fully operational in Greece, on the island of Lesbos, and three in Italy. It could have been done earlier, no doubt. But most important for us is to see it done immediately. Will it be enough? Once the hotspots are fully operational the situation will be better managed.

It is also very important to implement immediately what has been agreed between the EU and Turkey. Turkey is maybe the most important stakeholder in the management of the refugee crisis. According to recent information Turkey has 2.7m refugees. So Turkey needs our help. But it also should deliver. We want to see flows stemmed as soon as possible, and the fight against smugglers [to be] more effective.

The other very important component is that all efforts must be made to re-establish stability in countries like Syria or Libya. We have to continue the dialogue we inaugurated in Valletta [an EU-Africa summit in November] with third countries. It is not for nationals of every country in this region to find their own way towards Europe. The ones in need of international protection will have it.

Some people in Europe say that Chancellor Merkel is partly to blame for the influx of migrants by opening the door and allowing the route to be established through the Balkans. Do you share that assessment?
I do not share any assessment based on blame games. What Chancellor Merkel said is in tune with the basic values upon which the European project is built—namely solidarity and responsibility. It is also true that Germany, being the most favourable destination, along with countries like Sweden, is under heavy pressure. Many member states do not show willingness to be part of the policy they have agreed in order to address this unprecedented crisis.

We must not permit Europe to go back to its past. We must do our best in order to stop the expansion of xenophobic and populist rhetoric. Many migrants who want to come to Europe just declare that they're Syrian. But we're not in a position to know the numbers. That is why we have to fully establish the hotspot system.

One of the problems is that even if in Greece we register and fingerprint the vast majority of migrants, that's only one piece of the puzzle. If most want to go to Germany or Sweden, unless there is a prospect of them being unable to do that, they will move on. So you need another piece to start working. You have proposed relocation, which is very clearly not working yet. Now there are darker ideas around, like sealing the border with Macedonia.
This is not a solution. Let's suppose that [the Former Yugoslav Republic of] Macedonia-Greece borders are sealed. Smugglers and a big number of irregular migrants or refugees will follow another way. it will put both FYROM and Greece under pressure. Our policy is not to create problems but to help them sort them out.

The other thing to add to your puzzle is that it is not for migrants or refugees to choose where to go. That was the case in the beginning [but] now the relocation scheme must function in order to distribute, in a fair way, all these desperate people around Europe. I expect member state to tell us how many refugees they can host. From the moment that number starts working, things will improve, but as you know the figures are very poor. Fewer than 500 people have been relocated so far.

Why isn't it working? Are member states not cooperating? Are you unable to find candidate refugees? Are hotspots not working?
All of these elements at the same time. The hotspots must function. Refugees must realise that they must respect the rules and the laws of our Union. And [they must] acknowledge that European peoples and countries have opened their heart to provide them with support to live in peace, with support in medical terms, education, even in jobs.

But some national politicians listen to voices that put pressure on governments, and because they think they will lose votes, start showing irresponsible behaviour. In general I believe that European citizens are not negative. They want a better managed system that will not increase their feeling of insecurity. Some have amalgamated refugees with terrorism. I cannot accept that. Yes we must be cautious. But if we adopt this aphorism we might lead our strategy on migration the wrong way.

But two of the Paris attackers exploited this route.
The two perpetrators in Paris, yes they came to Europe through Turkey, but you shouldn't forget they were identified and fingerprinted, and found their path open to cross four member states of the EU, and three Balkan countries. Why? The answer is very simple. There are shortcomings in information exchange and sharing.

The perpetrators of these acts were not refugees, they just followed the movement of refugees. They were home-grown terrorists, they were born and bred in Europe. The big question is why these people turn against their homeland. So integration is one of our priorities in managing migration.

Some member have expressed a deep reluctance to accept substantial numbers of refugees, especially Muslims. They think they can't integrate them and point to what happened in Cologne on New Year's Eve as an example. How do you tackle that argument?
Muslims in Europe are not something new. They [have been] here since the middle of the last century. They are part of European societies—just go around Belgium, France, England, Germany. So it is not the religious element here that is important.

That is not to say that we don't have to address radicalisation. We have also the phenomenon of foreign fighters. But we must not generalise about Islam. On the contrary, we have to work with the Muslim community in Europe to address this issue from inside. The fact that the majority of those fleeing persecution or dictatorships are of Muslim extraction is not a problem. The EU's population will decline by 18million in the next decade, and our economy will need people to take their place. In next two months we'll present a comprehensive policy on legal migration.

But today Europe is under pressure because a huge number of refugees and irregular migrants who want to flee poverty or find a job approach our borders. We must distinguish between those irregular migrants and those in need of protection. We must step up signing agreements with countries they come from to take back their nationals when they have no right to stay here.

Europe has been caught by surprise. by what happened in the Middle East. This part of the world is fully destabilised. The international community and the EU are called on to find a political solution for the whole region, the arc stretching from Tunisia to Ukraine.

One thing we hear is the need for more ambitious resettlement directly from the region. The Germans have been at the forefront of that in Europe, but what about countries like America, Canada, Australia, the Gulf countries? Could they do more?
Absolutely. We have told our friends from this part of the world that they must be part of the solution by welcoming refugees who would like to go there. Their pledges are small but we shall insist. This issue is not regional, it's global, and should be confronted globally. That's why we are in an open contact with the UN. The United States and Canada have long and successful experience in migration. Arab countries should also open their doors. Right now it's zero. It will be a sign of solidarity towards their brothers.

Do you agree that an end to Schengen could threaten the single market or euro?
Schengen is the most tangible example of European integration. If we abolish it, I'm afraid it would put the whole project at stake. The economic impact would be catastrophic. Can you imagine all these trucks queuing at borders? If customs and barriers reappear on our borders, this will have a direct political impact. It will bring back old memories from the dark past of Europe. This is something that will lead Europe to backtracking. I remember Europe before Schengen. Our dream as young people was to travel around Europe without passports. But in order for it to function you need to establish trust between member states.